Warning To Messianics: Living Torah Could Make You Leave Jesus!

Co-written with “Almoni” blogger @2000yeardebate.blogspot.com

But what do we know? We’re just a couple of guys who have lived this article quite literally. So pay attention…there may just be something in here for you.

How do you prevent a viral infection? Give a person a small dose of the virus itself of course. It’s counter-intuitive but an effective treatment nevertheless. However it only works within key parameters: the antigen must be introduced in such a way as to produce the greatest action and the vaccine must also contain preservatives in the solution to prevent infection in the delivery system.

This is similar to what is happening to Christians who get caught up in the Hebrew Roots movement of Christianity (also called “Messianic Judaism”). The Christian turned “Messianic” gets warned by his Christian and Messianic friends that the Talmud is dangerous and that the works and teachings of the Rabbis are purely a man-made religion. He is told horror stories of former Messianics who traversed the dangerous waters of Jewish Orthodoxy and as a result rejected Jesus and lost their salvation. As time goes on, and this troubled soul begins practicing more and more authentic Judaism, the “forbidden texts” begin to breathe life into his psyche and feed his intellect for the first time in his search.

Scary Rabbi?

The skepticism and guilt that initially overshadows the joy the Messianic felt when he began to study Chazal scatters like a dust cloud as he starts to take what he is reading seriously; he realizes that there is something genuine and real to what the Sages are teaching. For a while he still sees Jesus as the focus of this new information, and gets excited when he finds similar teachings to Jesus’ words in the Talmud (Jesus never brought anything new. He merely restated ideas or borrowed statements from other thinkers). But eventually he accepts Jewish precepts that no longer allow him to believe that Jesus is divine. He gives the Christian New Testament a more honest reading and sees that parts of it, especially Paul, but even some of Jesus’ own teachings and behavior, are incompatible with true Judaism. As his identity shifts he begins to accept Judaism on its own terms and not from the distorted, perverted lens of Christianity. From here it is not a far jump for him to realize that Jesus cannot be the Jewish Messiah either. But this process usually only happens if the Christian embraces the teachings of the Sages and starts living by the Oral Torah–this is the preservative for the antigen.*

But what is the mechanism going on here? Why do so many Messianics who see the validity of the Oral Torah end up rejecting Jesus? A friend of mine who recently left Messianic Judaism, the author of the blog 2000yeardebate.blogspot.com, believes that “Orthodox Messianic Judaism is a gateway drug into pure Orthodox Judaism.” But is this the way it should be?

Albeit healthy when a non-Jewish Messianic comes to see the lies behind Christianity/Messianic Judaism, conversion is not necessarily the most worthwhile step for him at this stage. He only needs to remain faithful to the seven laws given to Noach, as they are the Gentile’s only obligation. He becomes what is called a Noachide. This is a perfectly good place for him to be. He does not need to go any further by converting to Judaism; he is righteous before G-d. He should go on to consult with an Orthodox Rabbi and learn about what his role is as a righteous Gentile in regards to the Torah and Israel.

The resources are sparse, but if he digs and persists he will be rewarded. He should also try to find others like him in order to create a community. The web is beginning to yield resources, but beware–Christian and Messianic pastors and teachers who call themselves Noachides are still on the prowl proffering advice in hopes of getting donations in exchange for their teachings. But their advice is tainted with idolatry and incorrect theology. A friend recently told me that he had learned on the internet that he could still believe in Jesus and be considered a Noachide. This is absolutely incorrect. Get a real teacher and learn from him.

Tragically, it seems that after some of these former Christian/Messianics have experienced elements of true Judaism, and have touched base with the wisdom and teachings of the Sages of Israel, they will encounter a huge identity crisis. They may feel that being a Noachide is not fulfilling enough. How could they? They felt the divine presence of the Sabbath, experienced a Pesach Seder. They were intrigued by the Gemara’s logic and the consistency of the Talmud, and many learned enough Hebrew and Aramaic to begin to truly learn (all this without a Jewish soul!). Yet, Messianic Jewish leaders have put these Gentiles in this position. It is their fault for these men, women and children could have been thriving just as well spiritually by living according to the wealth and depth of the Noachide laws. But for self-serving purposes like furthering the “Messianic mission” and deceiving true Jews, the leadership sacrifices these poor Gentiles on the altar of evangelism.

The good news is that those Gentiles who are genuinely better off being Jews can search for Orthodox Rabbis to assist them with this process. We can trust Hashem to draw all the Jewish neshamos back into His service. We can pray that everyone coming out of Messianic Judaism will find their true and proper place in this world.

*Please know that I am not condoning any of this because a non-jew should not learn Oral Torah. I’m just reporting a process that appears to be happening more and more lately.

21 comments
  1. isaiah said:

    Hello,

    I have come to see that your above post is very tragically true in many instances! But i would also like to state that in many cases the opposite happens, like in my case! The closer i have gotten to Judaism the closer i have gotten to the Master Jesus! It’s very sad that many are willing to sell him quicker than Judas but that is a choice that they must live with for the rest of there lives. One thing that cannot be pushed away into the background or written off as a myth, is the “FACT” that Jesus is Jewish and that He was well ‘with-in’ the Judaism of His day! Everyone knew His followers as those of ” the sect of the Way” or “the Nazarenes”! This is a historical fact. Thank God, that ever since that time there have been faithful men who have stood for the same truth.

    Shalom

    • Isaiah,

      Thanks for writing. You say that you have gotten closer to Judaism. This article really addresses those Messianics trying to live within the laws of Rabbinic Judaism; following Oral Torah and the Traditions. Question: Do you…separate meat and dairy? Have different dishes and silverware? No longer eat out at non-kosher restaurants? Only buy kosher products? double all of the holidays and observe the Rabbinic fasts? Pray three times a day with a minyan?

      • Israel said:

        Other orthodox Jewish disciples of Yeshua such as myself and others, do all the above – and still believe Yeshua is the Messiah according to Torah. Most of us live within walking distance of an orthodox shul, and the rest of us spend Friday night within an eruv so as not to drive, and be part of community, etc.

      • But you are not Orthodox Jews. You are not being taught and led by Orthodox Rabbis. You reject Chazal’s guidance and rulings and pick and choose what to study and believe from the Oral tradition. You are the same as the Cafeteria Christians. You do what you believe is best in your own eyes. We’ve seen that philosophy played out by real Jews in real Jewish history. It didn’t end well for them and it won’t for you if you don’t repent.

      • Israel said:

        On the contrary, we are led by legitimate orthodox rabbis who have valid orthodox training and smicha. There is no picking and choosing from the oral tradition. Such is the ridiculousness of perhaps those you’ve encountered claiming to be such. We follow the Sages, the halacha, and both the oral and written Torah. And we find no such disagreement with such and also believing that Yeshua is the Messiah of Israel.

      • Who are these Rabbi specifically sir? I would like to ask them for myself.

        I also want to know where are their ordinations from?

      • Israel said:

        You are welcome to start with my own rabbi. Check out rootsofthemessiah.com for details. You are welcome to call him.

      • Thank you I already know him and his group. Other Rabbis please since you said “rabbis” there must be others.

      • Israel said:

        Are you looking for a list of orthodox rabbis who believe Yeshua is the Messiah, or just names of rabbis that orthodox Jewish disciples of Yeshua follow? After all, an orthodox Jewish rabbi need not believe Yeshua is the Messiah in order for an orthodox Jewish disciple of Yeshua to have him as his rabbi. Orthodox Jewish disciples of Yeshua can just as easily integrate and learn from any orthodox rabbi, so why do you find it unbelievable that any of us orthodox Jewish disciples of Yeshua follow legit orthodox rabbis? In fact, we encourage anyone who is interested in Torah Judaism, and a disciple of Yeshua, to actually find a local orthodox rabbi and learn from him. You’d have to separate yourself from the Jewish community to do have it be an issue where you only have access to a Yeshua-following orthodox rabbi, but such separation is the issue. We are am Israel. We aren’t to separate from each other. We are to be echad, and as such learn Torah together. Of course, getting together with other disciples is also necessary from time to time, but what is required is community. Not separation.

      • “Are you looking for a list of orthodox rabbis who believe Yeshua is the Messiah, or just names of rabbis that orthodox Jewish disciples of Yeshua follow?”

        You had said that you are led by “legitimate orthodox rabbis…” and I would like to know who they are and find out what “legitimate” means.

        “…so why do you find it unbelievable that any of us orthodox Jewish disciples of Yeshua follow legit orthodox rabbis?”

        It is not that I find it unbelievable. I am well familiar with the “Orthodox” Messianic movement.

      • Israel said:

        I forgot to add above: He (my rabbi) can tell you others who believe Yeshua is the Messiah. I’m not at liberty to provide you with a list of such rabbis. I’m sure though you’ve also heard of the late Rabbi Simcha Pearlmutter – and perhaps others?

      • “I forgot to add above: He (my rabbi) can tell you others who believe Yeshua is the Messiah. I’m not at liberty to provide you with a list of such rabbis.”

        I am not looking for a general list of rabbis who believe Jesus is the messiah. I want to hear from you who is in your group that you say is leading you and who you are “legitimate” orthodox rabbis so that I can speak with them, find out where they were ordained, etc.

        Since you are citing them as legitimate and calling them a Beit Din, I would like to be informed.

      • Israel said:

        As I said then, ask my rabbi. I am not at a liberty to say who the others are that serve on our beit din. All I can do is refer to you to my rabbi. You said you already know him. Great. Call him and ask. I don’t have permission to share who the others are at this time. Are you looking for the services of an orthodox Jewish beit din?

        Other orthodox rabbis around the world have accepted disciples of Yeshua that I have personal contact with, and have encouraged, into their own tutelage and communities. Yet I’m not sure if you want those rabbi’s name’s too, which to be honest, I don’t think they would want to be called out on a public forum such as this. Especially one that on the outside appears openly hostile to such work or even inclusion of such disciples into Jewish communities. The time is not yet right. There remains a great deal of hostility and misunderstanding to get through, but if you are interested in knowing more, then contact my own rabbi to get started.

      • Why the privacy and secrecy? Who is restricting your liberty to share this information?

      • Israel said:

        With all due respect, who also serves on the beit din isn’t your concern Dr. Murphy. I gave you the contact of the closest orthodox Jewish rabbi I know, since he’s my own rabbi, to rebut your claim that we aren’t led by any orthodox Jewish rabbis. He himself serves as the av beit din, with two other orthodox Jewish rabbis of other Jewish congregations, so if you want to find credentials, start with him.

        I am not being asked not to tell you. I choose not to for simple common sense: some rabbis, if exposed to be involved helping orthodox Jewish disciples of Yeshua, would be harassed and/or kicked out of their communities. Do you want that? After all you’ve already written up an article exposing one rabbi for helping disciples join other communities. No thank you sir.

        I posted my response here to simply refute your statement that we aren’t led by orthodox Jewish rabbis. I know I am. So I present my rabbi, and you say you “know him.” Great. So what’s the hold up?

      • Sir (since I do not know your real name),

        A Beis Din is not a private entity. I realize you’re not connected with real, mainstream Judaism and are unfamiliar with a true Beis Din, but you should know the way you are presenting these men is a confirmation of my original charges.

        The man you cite as your rabbi is not an Orthodox Rabbi or a Jew. I know that you believe that he is but you are either seriously deceived and not at fault or you are purposely furthering a very dishonest scam and will be culpable when it is exposed.

        I have evidence for all of my claims and would be happy to help you get out of this cult and get help if you are interested.

        “With all due respect, who also serves on the beit din isn’t your concern Dr. Murphy. I gave you the contact of the closest orthodox Jewish rabbi I know, since he’s my own rabbi, to rebut your claim that we aren’t led by any orthodox Jewish rabbis. He himself serves as the av beit din, with two other orthodox Jewish rabbis of other Jewish congregations, so if you want to find credentials, start with him.

        I am not being asked not to tell you. I choose not to for simple common sense: some rabbis, if exposed to be involved helping orthodox Jewish disciples of Yeshua, would be harassed and/or kicked out of their communities. Do you want that? After all you’ve already written up an article exposing one rabbi for helping disciples join other communities. No thank you sir.

        I posted my response here to simply refute your statement that we aren’t led by orthodox Jewish rabbis. I know I am. So I present my rabbi, and you say you “know him.” Great. So what’s the hold up?”

      • Israel said:

        “A Beis Din is not a private entity. I realize you’re not connected with real, mainstream Judaism and are unfamiliar with a true Beis Din, but you should know the way you are presenting these men is a confirmation of my original charges.”

        No a Beit Din is not a private entity, but neither is the Sanhedrin in Israel, however they too have reason to not list who all their dayanim are, or even provide such a list on demand. Those with a need to know are made privy to additional information as they are trusted. Right now, you are not trusted. And for the same reasons the Sanhedrin currently does not list all its dayanim, so too I will not list ours here. Does choosing not to list names mean our beit din dayanim are any less legit? No. Just as we can’t make that conclusion about Sahnedrin dayanim in Israel. If I trusted you, I’d probably share with you who. But you’ve got some work to do to get to that point.

        “The man you cite as your rabbi is not an Orthodox Rabbi or a Jew. I know that you believe that he is but you are either seriously deceived and not at fault or you are purposely furthering a very dishonest scam and will be culpable when it is exposed. I have evidence for all of my claims and would be happy to help you get out of this cult and get help if you are interested.”

        I am so interested. Feel free to email me.

    • searchinmyroots said:

      Well just because Jesus may have been Jewish doesn’t really prove anything. Especially, contrary to your belief, Jesus was well “out-of” Judaism by trying to change things his way.

      And as Jeisyn mentions in his article, Paul was one of the worst offenders.

      I’ll give ONE example that really cannot be disputed.

      In the nt, Mark says:
      7:18And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; (KJV)

      What does G-d say in the Torah?

      • searchinmyroots said:

        Ah, I guess the silience speaks for itself!

      • Israel said:

        if it’s kosher, it won’t defile him. the context was in eating bread with unwashed hands. what is the “thing” we can eat? that which Torah defines. When we eat what Torah defines as kosher, we can not be defiled. That is the argument. He was using this point to counter the false belief that eating bread with unwashed hands makes one defiled.

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